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Is a hydrogen fuel cell electric car better than a regular electric car in term of environment friendliness, cost?

Postby chu101 » 29 Oct 2020, 09:34

No. Hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles are substantially worse than battery electric vehicles. Lets put some numbers behind this.

A typical battery electric vehicle gets something like 3.5 miles/kWh after transmission line losses. With the typical grid power in the US, which emits roughly 1.2lbs of CO2 per kWh, that amounts to something like 0.34 lbs/mile.

Hydrogen to fuel FCEVs is obtained by the steam reformation of natural gas. Steam reformation produces hydrogen and CO2 in the ratio of around 4 molecules to 1. If you do that math, that means you get 11 grams of CO2 to every gram of hydrogen. However, the reaction also takes 154kJ of heat per gram of hydrogen. If you get that heat by burning natural gas, which is the usual way, and the most efficient, it will emit another 8g of CO2. The Mirai’s tank stores 5kg of hydrogen, and it can go 312 miles on a tank, so its using about 16g/mile. That 16g of hydrogen is responsible for around 304g of CO2 emissions , or about 0.67 lbs per mile. That’s almost twice the emissions of a typical battery electric vehicle and substantially worse than, for example, a Prius. And this is all assuming no efficiency losses and ignoring the transport costs for the hydrogen. Hydrogen sucks. Its not a fuel. Its a very inefficient energy transport medium.

Several other answers suggest it would be more favorable to electrolyze water to obtain the hydrogen needed. However, this appears not to actually be the case. Practical electrolysis systems take around 50kWh per kg of hydrogen. With the typical electricity mix in the US, that will emit 60 pounds of carbon dioxide. And it will power the Mirai for 62 miles. That’s almost a pound of carbon dioxide per mile, which is actually beaten by the average light ICE vehicle. Again. Hydrogen sucks.

Aha! You might say - I can generate my electricity to power my electrolysis system using renewable power. Well, yes, you can. However, I can use that same electricity to power my battery electric vehicle. The problem is fundamental: a typical battery electric vehicle is getting 3.5 miles per kWh. Combining the Mirai’s efficiency and the efficiency of electrolysis you can only get 1.24 miles per kWh. Even if I assume my electrolysis is perfectly efficient and costs only 35kWh per kilogram, I can still only get 1.77 miles per kWh from the best fuel cell vehicle on the market. Whatever gains in the carbon efficiency of the grid can be made, they are better exploited by battery electric vehicles than by hydrogen ones.
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What’s your take on hydro cars instead of electric ones?

Postby chu101 » 29 Oct 2020, 09:42

Hydrogen cars can be done in two different ways. You either burn it in an internal combustion engine or use it in a fuel cell to power the electric motor(s).

There used to be a lot of interest in the former format, as an engine that burns hydrogen can also burn gasoline. Many of the testing platforms for this mode of hydrogen use carried two tanks, one for gasoline, one for hydrogen. Only hydrogen storage tends to be heavy, which means having tanks for both types of fuel limits the utility of the platform. And fuel economy on hydrogen is pretty bad, as its energy density is much lower than gasoline. And since commercial hydrogen is often ‘cracked’ from natural gas or methane/ethane/propane, it seems rather silly to put up with these issues when you could simply run the vehicle on natural gas or liquified propane.

Compressed gas has some of the same problems as hydrogen: it requires heavy, high pressure tanks, but propane requires less sophisticated (though still pressurized) storage. I once ran a propane car, and power output is nearly indistinguishable from gasoline (if you tune the engine specifically for propane, which has higher effective octane, the difference disappears). While it has lower energy density, propane is easily deployed for gasoline vehicle fleets. And it makes more sense than converting that propane into hydrogen.

The more successful format, which Toyota has implemented on the Mirai, is to use hydrogen in a fuel cell to run an electric drivetrain. The fuel cell has faster charge and discharge rates than lithium ion batteries, which means you can get greater range and output out of a smaller cell. The Mirai cheats a bit, though, by having a hybrid system that also uses Toyota’s proprietary nickel battery pack for around town cruising, but otherwise, it boasts excellent fuel economy compared to gasoline vehicles and is far and away more efficient than hydrogen-burning vehicles.

The one big problem is that fuel cells require very expensive catalysts. Which is why a Mirai costs some 50% more than a pure electric and around double what a hybrid costs. And hydrogen production still isn’t green. While costs for fuel cells has come down a lot and may eventually reach the point where they’re price competitive with lithium ion batteries, chances are we will still be cracking natural gas to make hydrogen over the next two decaces (electrolysis is just way too inefficient… that electricity would be better put to use charging batteries, instead)… which means that in a “greener” future, battery-electrics still make more sense than hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Cheaper to build. More fuel efficient. More durable energy storage. And, thanks to the popularity of the format, better economies of scale (for now). And when used in hybrids, they’re very cost competitive with gasoline, to boot.
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Re: Is a hydrogen fuel cell electric car better than a regular electric car in term of environment friendliness, cost?

Postby Netherrealmer » 29 Oct 2020, 15:08

I remember most people who attempted to do this got assassinated or sabotaged. One of the assassinated ones got his patent uploaded online so anyone can DIY his concept using any car.
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Re: Is a hydrogen fuel cell electric car better than a regular electric car in term of environment friendliness, cost?

Postby mrki444 » 31 Oct 2020, 10:01

Great compare or electric battery and hydrogen. Since show informations how much CO2 is made by electrolysis, add information how much C02 is made by making battery.
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Re: Is a hydrogen fuel cell electric car better than a regular electric car in term of environment friendliness, cost?

Postby Emmaojo » 03 Nov 2020, 21:42

The fuel cells is better, because not all countries have accessed to stable light (electricity). Just like my countries we hardly have light once in a month . so there's no way how it will be easier for us. We always for the fuel price to deflate
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Re: Is a hydrogen fuel cell electric car better than a regular electric car in term of environment friendliness, cost?

Postby Sincerem » 03 Nov 2020, 23:09

With those points you listed I think the normal electric battery cell seems better off than the hydrogen electric cell.
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